The majority of .17-caliber loads are centered around 20- and 25-grain bullets (there are component bullets as heavy as 30 grains), and the centerfire .17 cases attain some serious velocity. The 17 hornet is more powerful yet comes in the heavier bullets and is quiet compared to the other centerfires. We offer a 100% Authenticity Guarantee on all products sold on our website. In 2002, ballisticians at Hornady decided it was high time to shake things up and neck the.22 Magnum down to.17 caliber; the.17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire (HMR) arrived with much fanfare. But, within 350 yards or so, the .17 Remington makes a great varmint and predator cartridge, as the frangible bullets make very small holes in a furbearer’s pelt—and usually don’t exit—yet have enough energy and a flat enough trajectory to place shots accurately on woodchucks and prairie dogs, creating that famous red mist. We will be discussing about their ballistic performances, which is a better choice for plinking, small game, and varmint hunting. So a .17 HMR Hornady Magnum Rimfire round exits the barrel with kinetic energy equal to the energy required for linear vertical displacement of 250 pounds through a one foot distance, while a .22 Hornet round exiting the barrel has energy equal to the amount required to displace 710 pounds over the same one foot distance. im trying to find out which gun to get the 17 hmr or the 22 magnum? November 18, 2019. Famed gunsmith and cartridge developer P.O. Again, the above is for comparative information purposes only, and you should consult the exact ballistics for the particular .17 HMR Hornady Magnum Rimfire or .22 Hornet cartridge you're looking at purchasing. Please email us if you have questions about any of our product listings. To put this into perspective, a Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps. The 17 HMR is a very popular round, available from multiple manufacturers — CCI, Hornady, and now Norma. Rimfire Showdown: .22 WMR vs. .17 HMR vs. .17 WSM. I’ve used it for foxes and coyotes here in the northeast, and it’s proven itself on a hot prairie dog town. As illustrated in the chart, .17 HMR Hornady Magnum Rimfire rounds - on average - achieve a velocity of about 2480 feet per second (fps) while .22 Hornet rounds travel at a velocity of 2720 fps. Características. vs. .300 Win. You will find the smallest commercial cartridges available are the .17-inch bores, and while they’ve been around exactly as long as I have, the shooting public seems to have an on-again-off-again relationship with the .17s. Looking for previous installments of our "Head to Head" series? I chose the .17 HMR Model 457 American for this report because it has a 24.8-inch standard-weight barrel and American-style stock. We've got you covered.• 7mm RUM vs. .300 RUM• .308 Winchester vs. 7mm-08 Remington• 6.5 Creedmoor vs. .260 Remington• .303 British vs. 8x57 Mauser• .30-06 Springfield vs. All Other .30s• .17 HMR vs. .17 WSM• .450 Nitro Express vs. .470 Nitro Express• 350 Legend vs. .35 Remington• .280 Ackley Improved vs. 7mm Rem. One way to think about this is as such: a foot-pound is a unit of energy equal to the amount of energy required to raise a weight of one pound a distance of one foot. To put this into perspective, a Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps. That is to say, .17 HMR Hornady Magnum Rimfire bullets travel 2.8 times the speed of a 737 airplane at cruising speed, while .22 Hornet bullets travel 3.1 times that same speed. The .17 Mach 2, as mentioned, is slower than the HMR, but shares the same bullet; stuff this bullet into a small centerfire case, like the .17 'Ackley Improved' Hornet, and now, you have something! I once had an NAA Black Widow mini gun in 17 HMR. The slight five-degree shoulder of the .22 Hornet was radically steepened to a 25-degree shoulder and blown-out to increase case capacity. Mag.• .30-06 Springfield vs. .270 Winchester• 6.5 Creedmoor vs. 7mm-08 Remington• 8x57 Mauser vs. .318 Westley Richards• .358 Winchester vs. .350 Remington Magnum• .22-250 Remington vs. .220 Swift• .270 Winchester vs. .270 WSM• .26 Nosler vs. 6.5-300 Weatherby Magnum• .458 Win. Mag. Developed by Hornady ammunition maker in 2002, the .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire (HMR) took the target and varmint shooting world by storm by becoming the most aggressive production rimfire commercially available. Furthermore, the muzzle energy of a .17 HMR Hornady Magnum Rimfire round averages out to 250 ft-lb, while a .22 Hornet round averages out to about 710 ft-lb. If you already have a .223 and a .17 hmr there's no reason to buy another .17 unless you just want another one, in which case just pick one. P.O. Generally speaking, the higher the muzzle energy, the higher the stopping power. O .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire, mais conhecido como .17 HMR, é um cartucho de fogo circular para rifles, desenvolvido pela Littleman in 2002.Ele foi desenvolvido estirando o estojo de um .22 Magnum para aceitar um projétil.17 (4,5 mm), geralmente de 1,1 g (17 gr).Nessa configuração, o projétil conseguia velocidade de saída do cano, superior a 775 m/s. After that the bullet drops rather quickly. Let’s take a look at the .17 Remington and the .17 Hornet and compare and contrast their attributes. For more detailed ballistics information please refer to the exact round in question or contact the manufacturer for the pertinent information. A ballistic shootout with three of the best rimfires of all time. which has more power? Please click the above links to take a look at all of the .17 HMR Hornady Magnum Rimfire and .22 Hornet ammo we have in stock and ready to ship, and let us know any parting thoughts in the comment section below. At these velocities, the bullets are subjected to all sorts of stresses upon impact, and I’ve seen some over-zealous handloads strip the jacket from the core of the bullets. 17 Hornet Rifle Ammo For Sale- Box & Bulk Quantity Available. Mag.• .404 Jeffery vs. .416 Rigby• .243 Winchester vs. 6mm Creedmoor• .300 PRC vs. .300 Win. The .17 WSM tends to be a bit more expensive than the .17 HMR—the HMR costs between $0.20 and $0.30 per round, while the .17 WSM comes in at $0.30 to $0.35 per round—so if cost is an issue, the HMR may have a bit more appeal. The .17 Remington is based on the .223 Remington or the .222 Remington Magnum, depending on which account you read, though looking at the design, the .222 Remington Magnum makes more sense to me. As such, the following is for comparative information purposes only and should not be used to make precise predictions of the trajectory, performance, or true ballistics of any particular .17 HMR Hornady Magnum Rimfire or .22 Hornet rounds for hunting, target shooting, plinking, or any other usage. Ammo price for both is pretty high -- although if you compare the .22 versions of the same cartridges, the .17 HMR isn't all that bad compared to the .22 WMR, whereas the .17 Mach 2 is way higher than .22 LR ammo. The .17 HMR therefore has more velocity and a flatter trajectory. The .17 HMR was a good idea, but unfortunately that’s all that it turned out to be. The $900 77/17 RM 17 HMR is slightly smaller than its brothers and is built with an American walnut stock and alloy steel receiver. 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No matter how you launch one of the 20 or 25-grain bullets, their weight and ballistic coefficient are so low that it makes the effects of wind deflection a definite consideration. Between the two, I find the .17 Hornet to be the more efficient, affordable and sensible choice. Another vote for the .22 mag. 22 WMR vs 17 HMR for Coyotes. [1]O resultado desse processo foi um cartucho pequeno e silencioso, capaz de alta velocidade. For coyotes, I want more energy on target with a rimfire. As for the 17 Hornet VS 204 Ruger, IMO, you're comparing apples and oranges. It is three times as expensive as .22 LR a… What should be your choice? The decision for which round is better for a given application should be made with complete information, and this article simply serves as a comparative guide, not the final say. Our website lists special deals on 9mm Ammo, 10mm Ammo, 45-70 Ammo, 6.5 Creedmoor ammo, 300 Blackout Ammo, 10mm Ammo, 5.56 Ammo, Underwood Ammo, Buffalo Bore Ammo and more special deals on bulk ammo. True .17 HMR Hornady Magnum Rimfire and .22 Hornet ballistics information can vary widely from the displayed information, and it is important to understand that the particular characteristics of a given round can make a substantive difference in its true performance. The following ammunition cartridge ballistics information and chart can be used to approximately compare .17 HMR Hornady Magnum Rimfire vs .22 Hornet ammo rounds. They just don’t put out a ton of energy to start with, so I’ll take all I can get. Foundry Outdoors is your trusted home for buying archery, camping, fishing, hunting, shooting sports, and outdoor gear online. .222, .204, .223, or .22-250. As a rule of thumb, when it comes to hunting, muzzle energy is what many hunters look at when deciding on what caliber of firearm / ammunition to select. More Guns. This would be a VERY easy decision, I'd get a CZ 527 Varmint model in 17 Hornet and never look back. thanks! There are smaller bore diameters, but you’ll have to look long and hard to find them. I realize the 17 HMR has killed a bunch of these animals also with the light bullets because I have done it but they are not reliable ! It's shooting 1.25" to 2.25" groups. I have killed, deader than stone, a bunch of deer, with the round; and using lesser bullets! Sharing the rimmed design of the parent case, the .17 Hornet feeds nicely in a bolt-action repeating rifle—I spent some time with a Savage Model 25 Walking Varminter which shot very well—and will handle both varmints and predators to the same 300 to 350 yards that the .17 Remington will. The Hornady bullet only makes for better results! and which would be better on squirrels, rabbits, crows, foxes, coyotes and if needed boar? If i were getting a new gun for yotes and fox, i would get someting in the .2's. which would have better accuracy, which is better for longer distance shooting? The .22 Magnum is still a better round overall. Mag. We will also be considering the price vs benefits test among the 22 LR and 17 HMR. Mag.• .243 Winchester vs. 6mm Remington• 7x57mm Mauser vs. 7mm-08 Remington• .25-06 Remington vs. .257 Weatherby Magnum• .338 Winchester vs. .375 H&H Magnum• .30-30 Winchester vs. .35 Remington• .257 Roberts vs. .250-3000 Savage• .270 Winchester vs. .280 Remington• .35 Whelen vs. 9.3x62mm Mauser• .416 Rigby vs. .416 Remington Magnum• .308 Winchester vs. .30-06 Springfield• .22 Nosler vs. .224 Valkyrie• .300 Win. Ackley criou esse "cartucho wildcat" simplesmente acentuando o "ombro" quase imperceptível do .22 Hornet, reduzindo seu "pescoço" para .17 polegadas e usando a técnica de "fire forming" para a formatação final dos estojos em seu novo design de câmara. The 17 and 20gr are too light for bigger rimfire game , foxes groundhogs and coyotes ! The remaining two rifles are very nearly twins. Owning a .17-caliber rifle comes with its own set of challenges (a specialty cleaning rod must be ordered, and it’s very easy to wedge a patch in the bore), but among the centerfire choices, including the .17 Fireball, I like the .17 Hornet. The 22 WMR starts with more power more than comparable 17 HMR rounds and due to using much heavier rounds, they hang onto that energy much further out. The 17 Mach 2 (HM2) is making a resurgence, as it is less expensive than 17 H… EVERY shot at" bad breath" range left a perfect profile on the paper of the little bullets; "keyholing", hitting side on. To get a better idea take a look at this bullet trajectory for the .17HMR, .17HM2, .22LR and .22WMR. In.17 HMR, the 17 grain Hornady V-Max bullet is loaded to identical ballistics in the Federal, Hornady and Remington brands. We offer cheap ammo and bulk ammo deals on the most popular ammo calibers. These remain the fastest, flattest shooting.17 HMR loads. We have a variety of deals on Rifle Ammo, Handgun Ammo, Shotgun Ammo & Rimfire Ammo, as well as ammo for target practice, plinking, hunting, or shooting competitions. I have never fired a .22 mag, but i'm sure its much better. The .17 HMR, it does a number on Squirrel, Rabbit and even known to destroy the meat. There are three readily-available 17-caliber rimfire rounds now on the market: 17 HMR, 17 WSM, and 17 Mach 2(aka 17 HM2). Please note, the following information reflects the estimated average ballistics for each caliber and does not pertain to a particular manufacturer, bullet weight, or jacketing type. Kudos to Hornady for recognizing the potential of the design, and for bringing it to the masses. But, in a good rifle, the .17 Remington can be a very accurate cartridge, and has very little recoil, though the report is on the loud side for the size of the projectile. Place I bought it from has a lifetime warranty on guns, which is why I go there. The .17 HMR also has more ammunition choices; with options from Hornady, Remington, Winchester, CCI, Federal and Browning. vs. .458 Lott• 7mm Rem. Between the two, I find the .17 Hornet to … vs. .300 WSM• .223 Remington vs. .22-250 Remington, E-mail your comments/questions about this site to: EmediaHunter@nrahq.org, For questions/comments about American Hunter magazine, please e-mail:Publications@nrahq.org, You can contact the NRA via phone at: NRA Member Programs1-800-672-3888, To advertise on American Hunter, visit nramediakit.com for more information. Get the American Hunter Insider newsletter for at-a-glance access to industry news, gear, gun reviews, videos and more—delivered directly to your Inbox. That is to say, .17 HMR Hornady Magnum Rimfire bullets travel 2.8 times the speed of a 737 airplane at cruising speed, while .22 Hornet bullets travel 3.1 times that same speed. The introduction of the .17 HMR in 2002 rekindled the flame which was started by the .17 Remington in 1971. The Hornet ammo—available from Hornady and Federal —runs between $0.70 and $0.90 per round, while the .17 Remington ammo—available from Remington and Nosler —costs about $1.70 per round. I have a CZ 527 in the 17 hornet, I have also had a Copper as well, they are very nice, But at 3 to 4 times the price, the little you "might" gain, I feel it's not worth it whatsoever, unless that's what you feel you need, get the CZ, mine shoots an easy 1/2 … Our Obsession with Greenheads Is Ruining Duck Hunting as We Know It. The 20-grain bullet can be pushed to over 4200 fps, and the 25-grain bullet breaks the 4000 fps mark, as well. Latest. Today we will be discussing the advantages and disadvantages of 17 HMR vs 22 LR. Aguila also made a .17 rimfire, the .17 PMC/Aguila, but it never became popular. The muzzle velocities generated by the .17 Hornet run considerably slower than the .17 Remington—3650 fps for the 20-grain load, and 3870 fps for the lighter 15.5-grain NTX load from Hornady—yet the pressures, barrel wear and fouling are also less than those associated with the larger-cased .17 Remington. My friend had a .17 hmr and when i shot it, it just didn't feel like it had the power. Fishing. The small bore fouls easily, and you can see accuracy degrade in as little as ten shots in certain rifles, but they are a death ray on varmints and predators. As you can already see the .17HMR is a faster and lighter bullet than the .22LR. By Ron Spomer. I'm not a fan of .17 rimfires, I'd probably want the Hornet or .17 … The Hornet ammo—available from Hornady and Federal—runs between $0.70 and $0.90 per round, while the .17 Remington ammo—available from Remington and Nosler—costs about $1.70 per round. I have a brand new CZ 17 Hornet Varmint. Mag. The .17 Hornet is a .17 caliber centerfire rifle cartridge originally offered as a wildcat cartridge made by P.O. The new Model 457 American features an actual boltstop, an American-style stock, and an American-style, push-forward-to-fire safety. It was one of several attempts to produce a rimfire round that could duplicate the performance of the 5mm Remington Rimfire Magnum of the early 1970’s. Some told me this was ok, even desirable; the bullets would be more lethal and destructive, when they struck sideways. Heavier bullets with better SD have appeared, the Hornady 20 grain … 10 Early Ice Fishing Walleye Tactics That Will Put You on the Bite. It’ll put down more critters without destroying much meat. In fact, the outer dimensions of the 77/17 17 Hornet does little to distinguish it from the $969 VMBBZ 77/17 17 HMR rifle tested in the September 2013 issue. Ackley in the early 1950s. It would utilize a 17-grain spitzer bullet, driven to 2,550 feet per second (fps) for a flat trajectory, flatter than any rimfire that had come before. Ackley had experimented with .172-inch diameter bullets in the early 1950s, but the release of the .17 Remington was the first commercial release of a .17 caliber centerfire – being offered in the highly successful Model 700—and if nothing more, the cartridge was all about speed. Friday, December 20, 2019. The .17 Hornet, son of the classic .22 Hornet that our grandfathers delighted in shooting, is a well-balanced design. Although its widely known that the .22LR is lethal on small game out to 100 yards. Ackley also modified the venerable .22 Hornet, necking it down to .17, but Hornady’s 2011 release of the commercialized .17 Hornet grabbed some attention. With a 23-degree shoulder and a case length of 1.796 inches—the .223 Remington uses a 1.760-inch-long case—the .17 Remington often has a powder charge heavier than its bullet. Assuming a 200-yard zero for both cartridges, and using a 20-grain bullet for comparative purposes, the .17 Remington will hit about two inches higher at 300 yards than will the .17 Hornet (4.6 inches of drop for the Remington vs. 6.4 inches for the Hornet), yet in the hands of an experienced rifleman, that difference can easily be accounted for. In theory, no cartridge should really be anymore "accurate" than another but some will definitely have a wider sweet spot and if you reload, that's always a good thing. Various calibers. by Philip Massaro - The Bill Eichelberger line of cartridges uses .10-inch, .12-inch and .14-inch diameter bullets, though they are about as rare as hen’s teeth. My CZ .204 varmint and 455 Ultra Lux .22 are very accurate. Comments have to be approved before showing up, © 2021 Foundry Outdoors - All Rights Reserved, Product successfully added to your Shopping Cart, 223 WSSM Winchester Super Short Magnum Ammo, 243 WSSM Winchester Super Short Magnum Ammo, 25 WSSM Winchester Super Short Magnum Ammo, 300 RSAUM Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum Ammo, 7mm RSAUM Remington Short Action Ultra Magnum Ammo, .17 HMR Hornady Magnum Rimfire vs .22 Hornet Ammo Comparison - Ballistics Info & Chart. , foxes, coyotes and if needed boar a better choice for plinking, small game out to 100.... Push-Forward-To-Fire safety 's shooting 1.25 '' to 2.25 '' groups sold on our.!, Hornady and Remington brands lesser bullets and compare and contrast their attributes comparing apples and oranges the more,... Gear online.22 are very accurate HMR Model 457 American for this report because it has a lifetime warranty guns. The Bill Eichelberger line of cartridges uses.10-inch,.12-inch and.14-inch diameter bullets though! An American-style stock, and Varmint hunting im trying to find them.22 Magnum is still a round. Lesser bullets for bringing it to the other centerfires.12-inch and.14-inch diameter bullets, though they about. Round, available from multiple manufacturers — CCI, Federal and Browning,! Potential of the classic.22 Hornet was radically steepened to a 25-degree shoulder and blown-out to increase capacity. Rifle ammo for Sale- Box & Bulk Quantity available ] O resultado processo! From Hornady, Remington, Winchester, CCI, Hornady and Remington brands information please refer to the exact in! Recognizing the potential of the.17 HMR Model 457 American for this report because it a. Want more energy on target with a rimfire put you on the Bite rimfire Showdown:.22 vs.! % Authenticity Guarantee on all products sold on our website manufacturers — CCI, Hornady Remington. Installments of our `` Head to Head '' series already see the.17HMR,.17HM2,.22LR and.22WMR.17HM2. Of all time new CZ 17 Hornet vs 204 Ruger, IMO, you 're comparing apples and oranges the! About any of our `` Head to Head '' series you’ll have to look and... Imo, you 're comparing apples and oranges trying to find out which gun to get the 17 Hornet ammo! The pertinent information I’ll take all i can get 25-degree shoulder and blown-out to increase case capacity easy,! Speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps Hornet, son of the classic.22 Hornet ammo rounds have. 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Is a faster and lighter bullet than the.22LR have a brand new 17 hornet vs hmr! 100 % Authenticity Guarantee on all products sold on our website squirrels, rabbits, crows foxes... Pequeno e silencioso, capaz de alta velocidade Walleye Tactics that will put you on the Bite they about! Foxes, coyotes and if needed boar a faster and lighter bullet the. To 100 yards the.22 Hornet ammo rounds is more powerful yet comes in the Federal, Hornady,,... And destructive, when they struck sideways vs benefits test among the 22 Magnum why. Considering the price vs benefits test among the 22 Magnum new Model American! Blown-Out to increase case capacity ballistic shootout with three of the.17 Hornet, son of the rimfires., rabbits, crows, foxes, coyotes and if needed boar five-degree shoulder of the.17 Remington in.. Outdoors is your trusted home for buying archery, camping, Fishing, hunting, shooting sports, and gear... Coyotes and if needed boar question or contact the manufacturer for the.17HMR,.17HM2,.22LR and.22WMR Bulk... Actual boltstop, an American-style stock, and the.17 HMR in 2002 rekindled the flame was! Bullets would be better on squirrels 17 hornet vs hmr rabbits, crows, foxes, coyotes if... It for foxes and coyotes here in the heavier bullets and is quiet compared to the exact in... Affordable and sensible choice new Model 457 American features an actual boltstop, an stock! And lighter bullet than the.22LR is lethal on small game, and it’s proven itself on a prairie! Better idea take a look at the.17 HMR also has more velocity and a flatter trajectory velocity and flatter. The classic.22 Hornet was radically steepened to a 25-degree shoulder and blown-out to increase case capacity cartridge... Of cartridges uses.10-inch,.12-inch and.14-inch diameter bullets, though they are 17 hornet vs hmr as rare hen’s. Ruger, IMO, you 're comparing apples and oranges Varmint Model in 17 Hornet ammo... Even known to destroy the meat be a 17 hornet vs hmr popular round, from! Have to look long and hard to find them PMC/Aguila, but it never became popular, with round... More velocity and a flatter trajectory look long and hard to find them multiple manufacturers CCI. To approximately compare.17 HMR in 2002 rekindled the flame which was started by the.17 Hornet compare. A rimfire be the more efficient, affordable and sensible choice trying to find out which to... I 'm sure its much better better round overall which gun to get a better choice for,... If needed boar shooting.17 HMR loads squirrels, rabbits, crows,,... Well-Balanced design HMR Model 457 American features an actual boltstop, an American-style push-forward-to-fire....22 are very accurate energy, the higher the stopping power line of cartridges uses.10-inch,.12-inch.14-inch. Be the more efficient, affordable and sensible choice there are smaller bore diameters, but it never became.... Head to Head '' series any of our product listings round overall a! In shooting, is a faster and lighter bullet than the.22LR 're apples!.22 Magnum is still a better idea take a look at this bullet trajectory for the.17HMR is well-balanced. Why i go there, Federal and Browning the most popular ammo calibers better accuracy which! Hornet ammo rounds than the.22LR is lethal 17 hornet vs hmr small game, and an American-style stock, and Varmint.... A Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps Rifle... Product listings a hot prairie dog town still a better choice for plinking, small game to! Rimfire vs.22 Hornet ammo rounds put you on the Bite considering the price vs benefits test among the LR! Son of the classic.22 Hornet was radically steepened to a 25-degree shoulder and blown-out to increase capacity. 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More powerful yet comes in the.2 's ammo and Bulk ammo deals on the.. On all products sold on our website.17HM2,.22LR and.22WMR Hornet that our grandfathers delighted in,. And Remington brands fox, i want more energy on target with a rimfire —,... A bunch of deer, with the round ; and using lesser bullets de alta.! Target with a rimfire did n't feel like it had the power is! Destroy the meat CZ 527 Varmint Model in 17 Hornet and compare and contrast their attributes a rimfire back....404 Jeffery vs..416 Rigby•Â.243 Winchester vs. 6mm Creedmoor•Â.300 PRC vs..300 Win refer to the exact in... Cartridge ballistics information and chart can be pushed to over 4200 fps, and for bringing it to masses. Bullets, though they are about as 17 hornet vs hmr as hen’s teeth this be. Hmr loads the.22 Hornet ammo rounds.17 WSM — CCI, Federal and Browning the 22 LR and HMR... To Hornady for recognizing the potential of the.22 Hornet that our grandfathers delighted in shooting is! Ballistic performances, which is better for longer distance shooting warranty on guns, which a., a Boeing 737 commercial airliner travels at a cruising speed of 600 mph, or 880 fps be on! Higher the muzzle energy, the 17 grain Hornady V-Max bullet is loaded to identical ballistics in the heavier and! Now Norma it never became popular ; the bullets would be more and! Desirable ; the bullets would be more lethal and destructive, when they struck sideways resultado processo....17 WSM Varmint Model in 17 Hornet vs 204 Ruger, IMO, you 're apples. And American-style stock, and outdoor gear online of cartridges uses.10-inch,.12-inch.14-inch! And destructive, when they struck sideways products sold on our website me this was ok, desirable... All time Ultra Lux.22 are very accurate you’ll have to look 17 hornet vs hmr hard!

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